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	<title>Comments on: Anglican ethics, big bad oil, and the establishment bogeyman</title>
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	<link>http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/07/anglican-ethics-big-bad-oil-and-the-establishment-bogeyman/</link>
	<description>an everyday tale of stardust, spit and spirit</description>
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		<title>By: clayboy &#187; State funding and the Church of England: the truth</title>
		<link>http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/07/anglican-ethics-big-bad-oil-and-the-establishment-bogeyman/comment-page-1/#comment-261</link>
		<dc:creator>clayboy &#187; State funding and the Church of England: the truth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 16:18:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/07/anglican-ethics-big-bad-oil-and-the-establishment-bogeyman/#comment-261</guid>
		<description>[...] pulled this topic out of the comments on this post. It seems to me that there&#8217;s a mix of confusion and misrepresentation on this subject by [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] pulled this topic out of the comments on this post. It seems to me that there&#8217;s a mix of confusion and misrepresentation on this subject by [...]</p>
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		<title>By: clayboy</title>
		<link>http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/07/anglican-ethics-big-bad-oil-and-the-establishment-bogeyman/comment-page-1/#comment-258</link>
		<dc:creator>clayboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 08:06:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/07/anglican-ethics-big-bad-oil-and-the-establishment-bogeyman/#comment-258</guid>
		<description>BTW. I think your comment about state-funding disingenuous. The only other &quot;tax relief&quot; I can think of other than the VAT on historic building repairs, is Gift Aid – available to every church and charity. Church schools are – on the ground – far more a case of church goers paying extra to fund what is usually regarded as a better education for the local community well beyond its members – a funny form of state funding indeed. And of course available to other denominations. Trying to make out establishment leaves the C of E in a specially funded position is at best misleading.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW. I think your comment about state-funding disingenuous. The only other &#8220;tax relief&#8221; I can think of other than the VAT on historic building repairs, is Gift Aid – available to every church and charity. Church schools are – on the ground – far more a case of church goers paying extra to fund what is usually regarded as a better education for the local community well beyond its members – a funny form of state funding indeed. And of course available to other denominations. Trying to make out establishment leaves the C of E in a specially funded position is at best misleading.</p>
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		<title>By: clayboy</title>
		<link>http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/07/anglican-ethics-big-bad-oil-and-the-establishment-bogeyman/comment-page-1/#comment-254</link>
		<dc:creator>clayboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 22:45:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/07/anglican-ethics-big-bad-oil-and-the-establishment-bogeyman/#comment-254</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry I assumed you received funding from anabpatist sources. I clearly misinterpreted this paragraph of your site, which I held to include references to funding:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Ekklesia emerged in 2002 from Workshop, a long-standing independent theological training programme sponsored by the Anvil Trust. Its partners in the Root and Branch Network include the Anabaptist Network UK, the London Mennonite Centre, and Christian Peacemaker Teams UK.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I am happy to correct that.

It seems to me – and you clearly disagree – that irrespective of the church you attend, the positions you take are anabaptist whenever they touch on the church and the state. It further seems to me that most of your press releases, in order to attract publicity, attack the Church of England more than other denominations. (Possibly these are the only ones the media pays any attention to?)

You may feel I have caricatured &lt;em&gt;Ekklesia&lt;/em&gt;. If so, I apologise, since I did not intend to. Nonetheless, the way I have described your organisation is, honestly, the way it has come across to me over a relatively long period of time. Perhaps that is mainly in the fault of my perceptions. Perhaps you have significantly contributed to those perceptions by both your style and content.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry I assumed you received funding from anabpatist sources. I clearly misinterpreted this paragraph of your site, which I held to include references to funding:</p>
<blockquote><p>Ekklesia emerged in 2002 from Workshop, a long-standing independent theological training programme sponsored by the Anvil Trust. Its partners in the Root and Branch Network include the Anabaptist Network UK, the London Mennonite Centre, and Christian Peacemaker Teams UK.</p></blockquote>
<p>I am happy to correct that.</p>
<p>It seems to me – and you clearly disagree – that irrespective of the church you attend, the positions you take are anabaptist whenever they touch on the church and the state. It further seems to me that most of your press releases, in order to attract publicity, attack the Church of England more than other denominations. (Possibly these are the only ones the media pays any attention to?)</p>
<p>You may feel I have caricatured <em>Ekklesia</em>. If so, I apologise, since I did not intend to. Nonetheless, the way I have described your organisation is, honestly, the way it has come across to me over a relatively long period of time. Perhaps that is mainly in the fault of my perceptions. Perhaps you have significantly contributed to those perceptions by both your style and content.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Bartley</title>
		<link>http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/07/anglican-ethics-big-bad-oil-and-the-establishment-bogeyman/comment-page-1/#comment-253</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Bartley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 22:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/07/anglican-ethics-big-bad-oil-and-the-establishment-bogeyman/#comment-253</guid>
		<description>Just a few quick corrections:

1. Ekklesia is not anabaptist funded, we are self-funded (made clear on our website).  Indeed we raise £250,000 a year through it for overseas development work.
2. Ekklesia is not anabaptist, I attend my local anglican church, and have attended then all my life. We do however incorporate elements of the anabatist tradition and work with anabaptists, but to characature Ekklesia in this way is to misrepresent us.
3. Your hypothesis that we believe in &quot;a pure church of believers unentangled by compromise in the real world&quot; is just plainly false. 
4. The Church of England does receive state funding in a number of ways, not least through the significant tax relief it claims, but also through its schools which are 95% funded through the taxpayer (but that of course is separate to what we are discussing here).  

You do not seem to have read the more substantive report we have written (linked to and referred to in the articles you mention) which points out a whole catalogue of concerns such as the Church&#039;s selling off of social housing in favour of out of town shopping centres, as well as our suggestion for alternative investments which would bring in a (possibly better) profit. 

I would also be grateful to see any evidence of the way in which you consider us to be &quot;self-promoting&quot;.  Certainly compared to the press releases of the Church of England I think that accusation falls apart!

To link our concern in this area to disestablishment also seems to me bizarre.  The common theme of our website - if there is one - is a desire to see justice done.  That is why we cover disestablishment and church schools, but also climate change, peacemaking, arms control, restorative justice and a whole range of other issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a few quick corrections:</p>
<p>1. Ekklesia is not anabaptist funded, we are self-funded (made clear on our website).  Indeed we raise £250,000 a year through it for overseas development work.<br />
2. Ekklesia is not anabaptist, I attend my local anglican church, and have attended then all my life. We do however incorporate elements of the anabatist tradition and work with anabaptists, but to characature Ekklesia in this way is to misrepresent us.<br />
3. Your hypothesis that we believe in &#8220;a pure church of believers unentangled by compromise in the real world&#8221; is just plainly false.<br />
4. The Church of England does receive state funding in a number of ways, not least through the significant tax relief it claims, but also through its schools which are 95% funded through the taxpayer (but that of course is separate to what we are discussing here).  </p>
<p>You do not seem to have read the more substantive report we have written (linked to and referred to in the articles you mention) which points out a whole catalogue of concerns such as the Church&#8217;s selling off of social housing in favour of out of town shopping centres, as well as our suggestion for alternative investments which would bring in a (possibly better) profit. </p>
<p>I would also be grateful to see any evidence of the way in which you consider us to be &#8220;self-promoting&#8221;.  Certainly compared to the press releases of the Church of England I think that accusation falls apart!</p>
<p>To link our concern in this area to disestablishment also seems to me bizarre.  The common theme of our website &#8211; if there is one &#8211; is a desire to see justice done.  That is why we cover disestablishment and church schools, but also climate change, peacemaking, arms control, restorative justice and a whole range of other issues.</p>
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		<title>By: clayboy</title>
		<link>http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/07/anglican-ethics-big-bad-oil-and-the-establishment-bogeyman/comment-page-1/#comment-252</link>
		<dc:creator>clayboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/07/anglican-ethics-big-bad-oil-and-the-establishment-bogeyman/#comment-252</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Joe. I still think there&#039;s a big question whether the C of E can prophecy more strongly in a shareholders&#039; meeting or in a pulpit? Which is more likely to achieve a real change in the Niger Delta? I honestly don&#039;t know the answer to that one, but it seems a question worth asking.

I am aware that there are very few industries the Church Commissioners have felt compelled to withdraw from. You will be pleased to hear however that they operate a blanket policy (AFAIK) of never investing in the arms trade.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Joe. I still think there&#8217;s a big question whether the C of E can prophecy more strongly in a shareholders&#8217; meeting or in a pulpit? Which is more likely to achieve a real change in the Niger Delta? I honestly don&#8217;t know the answer to that one, but it seems a question worth asking.</p>
<p>I am aware that there are very few industries the Church Commissioners have felt compelled to withdraw from. You will be pleased to hear however that they operate a blanket policy (AFAIK) of never investing in the arms trade.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe50</title>
		<link>http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/07/anglican-ethics-big-bad-oil-and-the-establishment-bogeyman/comment-page-1/#comment-251</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe50</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 14:45:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/07/anglican-ethics-big-bad-oil-and-the-establishment-bogeyman/#comment-251</guid>
		<description>Hi Doug,

I&#039;m happy to be corrected on the state funding point- it is a misperception I&#039;ve held for a long time apparantely! I should also have made clear that I attend an Anglican church myself and wish for it to remain a state established church. I didn&#039;t intend this article to be an attack on the C of E in general, rather highlighting an issue I think needs urgently addressing.

Having read your response I agree that the Church is not actively complicit in unethical behaviour of comapnies it holds stocks in. However, I do stick by my assertion that by sharing in the profits of those who exploit the poor and destroy the environment the C of E is not heeding the old testament prophets and wisdom literature that speaks against such pratices, and thus my answer to your question as to whether the behaviour is so contradictory to the purpose of the church as to override the Commissioners obligation to maximise returns my answer would be yes.

I agree there is murkiness in the world and even in the Christian faith, but that this issue does crawl out of it and into the realm of black and white. Or maybe my evangelicism compels me to be controversialist on matters of church practise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Doug,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m happy to be corrected on the state funding point- it is a misperception I&#8217;ve held for a long time apparantely! I should also have made clear that I attend an Anglican church myself and wish for it to remain a state established church. I didn&#8217;t intend this article to be an attack on the C of E in general, rather highlighting an issue I think needs urgently addressing.</p>
<p>Having read your response I agree that the Church is not actively complicit in unethical behaviour of comapnies it holds stocks in. However, I do stick by my assertion that by sharing in the profits of those who exploit the poor and destroy the environment the C of E is not heeding the old testament prophets and wisdom literature that speaks against such pratices, and thus my answer to your question as to whether the behaviour is so contradictory to the purpose of the church as to override the Commissioners obligation to maximise returns my answer would be yes.</p>
<p>I agree there is murkiness in the world and even in the Christian faith, but that this issue does crawl out of it and into the realm of black and white. Or maybe my evangelicism compels me to be controversialist on matters of church practise.</p>
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