Comments on: Picking (half) an argument with John Hobbins http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/ an everyday tale of stardust, spit and spirit Tue, 16 Mar 2010 23:04:25 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: John Hobbins http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/comment-page-1/#comment-185 John Hobbins Fri, 26 Jun 2009 15:43:12 +0000 http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/#comment-185 Theo, You say: "John is fond of saying that the RSV follows the Masoretic Text more closely, but this is not the case: where the RSV cites the the DSS or Septuagint, the ESV does as well." It will be easy to prove you wrong there. It is one of the strengths of ESV that it corrects back toward the MT on many occasions. I'm too busy with other things at the moment, but I will gladly make the case in exquisite detail in the future. The anti-TNIV campaign was far more than a marketing plan. It was the expression of a culture war (excuse the metaphor) going on among evangelicals which completely transcends the question of Bible translation (they are just convenient hooks) and invests a great variety of social, political, and theological issues. It has to be understood in that light or it will never be understood at all. Theo,

You say:

“John is fond of saying that the RSV follows the Masoretic Text more closely, but this is not the case: where the RSV cites the the DSS or Septuagint, the ESV does as well.”

It will be easy to prove you wrong there. It is one of the strengths of ESV that it corrects back toward the MT on many occasions. I’m too busy with other things at the moment, but I will gladly make the case in exquisite detail in the future.

The anti-TNIV campaign was far more than a marketing plan. It was the expression of a culture war (excuse the metaphor) going on among evangelicals which completely transcends the question of Bible translation (they are just convenient hooks) and invests a great variety of social, political, and theological issues. It has to be understood in that light or it will never be understood at all.

]]> By: John Hobbins http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/comment-page-1/#comment-184 John Hobbins Fri, 26 Jun 2009 15:33:14 +0000 http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/#comment-184 Tiro3, How nice of you to join the conversation! What you say is largely true, but today's generations make an exception when reading the Bible, as they do for other old books. That is, the quaint use of the word "men" in traditional translations of the Bible (ESV included) doesn't raise an eyebrow among young people. Not once in my experience, really. There are many other quaint old things in the Bible, after all: this is just one more. Objections to the inclusive use of "men" in Bible translation, and especially the avoidance of an inclusive use of the third masculine singular pronoun, is a trained response by and large derived from an activist branch of the feminist movement. In the marketplace of ideas, it is often so labeled, correctly enough IMHO. Tiro3,

How nice of you to join the conversation!

What you say is largely true, but today’s generations make an exception when reading the Bible, as they do for other old books. That is, the quaint use of the word “men” in traditional translations of the Bible (ESV included) doesn’t raise an eyebrow among young people. Not once in my experience, really.

There are many other quaint old things in the Bible, after all: this is just one more.

Objections to the inclusive use of “men” in Bible translation, and especially the avoidance of an inclusive use of the third masculine singular pronoun, is a trained response by and large derived from an activist branch of the feminist movement. In the marketplace of ideas, it is often so labeled, correctly enough IMHO.

]]> By: tiro3 http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/comment-page-1/#comment-139 tiro3 Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:50:06 +0000 http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/#comment-139 It should be pointed out that to those of us of an older generation, say 55 plus, the use of 'men' has pretty much meant men and women except when someone didn't want it to. :) But today's generations understand 'men' to be male and 'persons', 'people', humanity, etc. to be referring to men and women. That isn't likely to change back. And we need our Bibles to be accurately representing when it is men and women and male only or females only. It should be pointed out that to those of us of an older generation, say 55 plus, the use of ‘men’ has pretty much meant men and women except when someone didn’t want it to. :)

But today’s generations understand ‘men’ to be male and ‘persons’, ‘people’, humanity, etc. to be referring to men and women. That isn’t likely to change back. And we need our Bibles to be accurately representing when it is men and women and male only or females only.

]]> By: clayboy » Some honest (no really) questions about the culture wars http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/comment-page-1/#comment-130 clayboy » Some honest (no really) questions about the culture wars Tue, 23 Jun 2009 11:54:09 +0000 http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/#comment-130 [...] wonder of those who commented here or here, among others, might be willing to explore and answer some of my slightly bemused English [...] [...] wonder of those who commented here or here, among others, might be willing to explore and answer some of my slightly bemused English [...]

]]> By: clayboy http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/comment-page-1/#comment-127 clayboy Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:15:35 +0000 http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/#comment-127 Okeydokey, boys and girls, I think we're beginning to repeat ourselves with added heat but no more light. (That's called a big hint!) :) But has this blog been busy while I've been asleep! New points and clarifications remain welcome. I'm going to come at one of these questions from a different angle in a post later today. Okeydokey, boys and girls, I think we’re beginning to repeat ourselves with added heat but no more light. (That’s called a big hint!) :) But has this blog been busy while I’ve been asleep!
New points and clarifications remain welcome.

I’m going to come at one of these questions from a different angle in a post later today.

]]> By: Suzanne http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/comment-page-1/#comment-126 Suzanne Tue, 23 Jun 2009 04:18:12 +0000 http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/#comment-126 Let me be clear. I asked Dr. Packer about 2 Tim. 2:2 and he said that it referred to women. I was preoccupied at the time with other questions and the implications of the preface had not yet hit me. Let me be clear. I asked Dr. Packer about 2 Tim. 2:2 and he said that it referred to women. I was preoccupied at the time with other questions and the implications of the preface had not yet hit me.

]]> By: Suzanne http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/comment-page-1/#comment-124 Suzanne Tue, 23 Jun 2009 03:26:30 +0000 http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/#comment-124 Of course, they don't mean to limit atonement. They do mean to give permission to any pastor to disallow women the practice of any gift in church. That's why Eph. 4:8 says men. Of course, they don’t mean to limit atonement. They do mean to give permission to any pastor to disallow women the practice of any gift in church. That’s why Eph. 4:8 says men.

]]> By: Suzanne http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/comment-page-1/#comment-123 Suzanne Tue, 23 Jun 2009 03:25:19 +0000 http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/#comment-123 John, It is clear that the singular "man" is being used to mean mankind. This does not mean that the plural refers to women. I interviewed Packer. He said, "We think it means men." But when he said "we think" he sounded pretty sure. John,

It is clear that the singular “man” is being used to mean mankind. This does not mean that the plural refers to women. I interviewed Packer. He said, “We think it means men.” But when he said “we think” he sounded pretty sure.

]]> By: Theophrastus http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/comment-page-1/#comment-122 Theophrastus Tue, 23 Jun 2009 02:38:30 +0000 http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/#comment-122 John, I deny your absurd charges. My remarks speak for themselves. Since you no longer read books before you publish reviews of them, I expect it is too much to expect that you will bother to read my comments. John, I deny your absurd charges. My remarks speak for themselves. Since you no longer read books before you publish reviews of them, I expect it is too much to expect that you will bother to read my comments.

]]> By: John Hobbins http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/comment-page-1/#comment-119 John Hobbins Tue, 23 Jun 2009 01:05:58 +0000 http://clayboy.co.uk/2009/06/picking-half-an-argument-with-john-hobbins/#comment-119 Theo, In an upcoming post on my blog, I will exemplify why ESV is well-suited as a Bible for religious purposes - for the faith community it was intended for, of course. The NRSV, on the other hand, is well-suited, not for religious purposes of either Jews or Christians, but for secular purposes, an academic context. Really, all your remarks boil down to one thing: your visceral hatred of all things evangelical. The poison in your remarks succeeds in making those of us who are evangelical turn to Matthew 5:11 with the prayer that we will be found worthy of your continued attacks. Theo,

In an upcoming post on my blog, I will exemplify why ESV is well-suited as a Bible for religious purposes – for the faith community it was intended for, of course. The NRSV, on the other hand, is well-suited, not for religious purposes of either Jews or Christians, but for secular purposes, an academic context.

Really, all your remarks boil down to one thing: your visceral hatred of all things evangelical.

The poison in your remarks succeeds in making those of us who are evangelical turn to Matthew 5:11 with the prayer that we will be found worthy of your continued attacks.

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